"Poetry Reading" by Catala, and photo from a poetry reading in Munich, GermanyA Formalist Poet at the Open Mic Part III: Something in the Rafters, by Daniel Kemper The Society June 17, 2024 Essays, Poetry 23 Comments . A Formalist Poet at the Open Mic Part III: Something in the Rafters by Daniel Kemper I wander into the incandescent glow of the poetry center and Patrick is muttering as I walk in the door. He’s wiping his forehead, which means, despite his otherwise abundant curly brown, silver-tipped hair, that he’s rubbing all the way to the top of his head. Receding hairline and all. He does this when he’s thinking, but I can tell he’s stressed because he’s applying so much pressure he’s dragging his eyebrows up there, too. “Damn, Patrick, you talk about me getting out there in the ether! What’s up?” It turns out he was working on the insulation (exposed in the sort of vaulted ceiling) and he was caught in a kind of mini-avalanche. He’s not so much rubbing his head for the habit of doing it while thinking, but because he’s still unconsciously wiping the avalanche off. That’s right. There are rats in the rafters. Think about that an extra second or three. Ug. “Oh, unplug the tea pot when you do!” The fuse will blow otherwise. Too much energy, too little capacity. Patrick asks me to get out the coffee pot and plug it in and I oblige a little taken aback by how many appliances are abusing a poor little old power strip. Two experienced performers are here already, Rishi Mik and, call the other, Shawshank. The former is a story-teller who has worked backwards from that into free-verse poetry. He’s a skilled storyteller. The other is very successful, much awarded. His shows are antics-filled, throwing tiny little paper snippets with phrases on them to the audience and whatnot. Somehow, I’m thinking about Gallagher’s “Sledge-o-matic,” but that’s me. He’s so stereotypically woke that it’s clear his success follows his activism and not the reverse. Call him a multi-level marketer. Maybe I should call him Amway. By multi-level I mean he’s Casper white with beady anemically-blue eyes, but does the gansta poetry thing, adding the level of attacking other white gangstas as false. Multi-level. Amway. But Amway’s capitalist. They’re going off jointly as though they had an opponent in the room. One says, “The point is the personal. THE personal! That’s what it’s all about, Holmes.” The other, “I know, right? They’ll spend all day in an office and then make some sonnet or something. And cry waaahh… I have no audience!” “It’s like ah say, bro, ’Poetry is a PERSONAL medium.’ Dumb-ass cracker gentrifiers and shit.” He was raised in an upper middle-class white neighborhood east of here. I could say, in a moment of mischief, that their conversation is formal poetry because it’s built on tropes and repetition and formula. I let it fade from my mind. My own thoughts take over though I think I’m actually tapping my foot slowly to the interchange. I’m thinking of what bad shape poetry is in, in academia. Few are the classes at the college where I’m going and I think only one teacher is metrically competent. And yet they only approach poetry from a skills-based perspective. No wonder it’s seen as purely formulaic, heartless, etc. The coffee is starting to percolate and gurgle and as I’m enjoying that sound, I hear scratching overhead, then… wait for it, right on the meter… wait for it… “TRUMP!!” And it quickly fades into end of the world stuff. The refrain will come round again, but I’ll try and spare you. The picture should be clear. What Shawshank doesn’t realize is that his position undoes him. His work, unlike a substantial number of others, is poetically awful. I preface that judgment with “poetically,” because that makes it measurable and objective. Non-disputum the performance value others might find. He’s undone because the only reason the drek slips by is because it’s personal. These are social events. The success of writings that come afterwards only comes because they rekindle memories and associations of the social event. Often the personal involves politics, so there’s that. And again, the schools mostly miss out—at least as far as connecting it to poetry. They would, if they cared enough about poetry. But a darker thing occurred to me. There was some echo of the “Make it personal,” that kept ringing in my head. “TRUMP!” Damn, I’m sorry. I meant to suppress that. But you hear my point. Others are coming in. Among them an older woman who’s a strong-hearted king of person who’s had many struggles. Call her Di-di. Coming in slowly. Recently replaced knees. The darker realization was that there is a single source that the principles of these free-verse (in any case, non-traditional) poetry organizations are based on. Whether these poets are aware of it or not: “Rules for Radicals.” Alinsky. By now, I’m feeling a bit self-conscious. Here’s the formalist at the open mic and only my thoughts are onscreen, not so much the open mic. Well, there are typically a few, good nuggets in an evening that seem appropriate to share as part of the visit. That I’m talking over all of it now… well, some might read that as a statement on what can be strained out of this evening’s features. But we’re seated in the audience here at least. But not Di-di. She’s still coming. It’s not just that all poems are personal, or all poems get political, it’s that virtually all are styled as a protest against something. That’s part of the Alinsky thing. Patrick puts his arms around the huddle that’s gathered around Shawshank and Rishi-Mik, mutters something comically offensive and heads to the mic. Wait for it… wait for it… TR… No, I’ll catch it this time. Their inadvertently robotic version of a fixed form ends as the huddle gets their seats and Shawshank shuffles like a club boxer getting ready to earn a little bread money. Patrick starts the announcements. Di-di is still coming. Just so you know that she and I know each other well enough that rough humor is our currency. Comparing meds we used to take in college, side effects, characters met in those institutions and whatnot. If it were strip poker though, her stories would have me naked. Patrick who is notorious for going on too long with the announcements finishes. Di-di sits down. Shawshank starts. Not with a poem, but a tirade about whiteness and how ignorant the people are who don’t get it, twisting that artfully into some humblebrag about the days before he sat before Buddha’s Wall. Yeah, I think I’ll spare you the actual poetry this time. I hear scratching in the rafters overhead. . . Daniel Kemper is a former tournament-winning wrestler, a black belt in traditional Shotokan karate and a former infantryman. He has a BA in English, an MCSE (Systems Engineering), and an MBA. He quit a 25-year IT career in 2023 and went all-in on poetry. Since then, he’s had works accepted for publication at The Blue Unicorn, The Lyric, thehypertexts.com, The Creativity Webzine, Amethyst Review, Rat’s Ass Review, Formalverse, The Literary Hatchet, the Society for Classical Poets, and Ekphrastic Review. He was an invited presenter at the 2023 national PAMLA conference and will preside over the Poetics Panel at PAMLA 2024. He was nominated for a Pushcart Prize by The Blue Unicorn and has been the featured poet at the historic Luna’s Cafe and the Sacramento Poetry Center. NOTE TO READERS: If you enjoyed this poem or other content, please consider making a donation to the Society of Classical Poets. The Society of Classical Poets does not endorse any views expressed in individual poems or commentary. Share this:Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window)Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window)Click to print (Opens in new window)Click to share on LinkedIn (Opens in new window)Click to share on WhatsApp (Opens in new window)Click to email a link to a friend (Opens in new window)Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window)Trending now: 23 Responses Cynthia Erlandson June 17, 2024 Wow, great description, Daniel. I’m grateful to you, because I would so much rather read about these events than attend them. Reply Daniel Kemper June 18, 2024 Hi Cynthia, Thank you for the reply. Sorry to be late; hectic day before during after some work with the SPC. A caution about the overall impression of these events. Remember that the pleasant and good doesn’t make much of a story to post. A bright spot post is coming– but the idea is the stark contrast. I’ve worked my way into giving a workshop on “Meter and Flow” and one of the attendees wanted me to look over something he was working on. He’s a great guy, 80+, joe cool sax, easy going. Took some effort for meter to click b/c he hasn’t written that way and it doesn’t map 1:1 with music. But something clicked. (Only one session so far.) He presented a poem that was roughly a full page with 5 total dings. The rest was solid meter. Yay! Now, change of subject: Something I hope to base an essay on was a challenge one of the attendees presented. So Daniel, tell me, why would I want to write like this, to learn all this?” By which he meant learn how to write in meter. How would you respond? Open question for anyone: Why write in meter? Reply Joseph S. Salemi June 18, 2024 Why carve a cameo? Why learn to play the harpsichord? Why make Belgian lace? Why cut and polish a diamond? Why sing grand opera? Why weave a tapestry? Why write a novel? Why paint a fresco? The question asked by that attendee is the question of an aesthetic philistine, who sees artistic endeavor as nothing important, or or just as a means of expressing visceral emotion without embellishment. If that’s the kind of person who frequents the SPC, they have nothing to say to us. You opened the door, by making this an open question. Reply Daniel Kemper June 18, 2024 Hey Joe, Yes–totally open. You read my intent perfectly. Glad and encouraged to hear from you on topic. I want to be sure I have everything I can top of mind, so i hope others keep responding as well. Exactly! I had a two-prong response and was beginning to elaborate just as you have, reductio-ad-absurdum, when he more or less said, okokok. The first thing I pointed out was that that using meter means more tools on the table for expression. Not just a few more, but that actually the tools available for expression when you have a foundation of good meter actually dwarfs the number of tools available to the free verse world. It’s the difference between someone who has never played piano and Haydn, say. True a person can make notes and shine out a pretty-ish pattern or two, but… But it’s not just a matter of facts, but I don’t mean that makes it a matter of fiction, lol, I mean it’s a matter of approach. If you are writing a poem, you have a message/experience/feeling/insight you want to deliver and an audience to whom you want to deliver it, right? So, you consider the approach that will get these things conveyed to the listener, even implanted if you will. ATM, my tour of the poetic world-as-it-is not as-it-could-or-should-be isn’t asking what that world has to say or not, but what can I effectively say to them. And how. That’s a take/toss continued invitation if you want. More to come; I’m running around giving tutorials today… Joseph S. Salemi June 18, 2024 Daniel, you still don’t really understand what I’m talking about. Poetry — and all the fine arts — are about their own aesthetic perfection, and how that perfection appeals to and satisfies the innate human love of beauty that exists in almost everyone. All of the things I mentioned above (cameos, harpsichords, Belgian lace, etc.) are in no way necessary for our physical existence. But things of this sort are necessary for those of us who appreciate the finer elements of high culture. When you go on about the “message/experience/feeling/insight you want to deliver” you are just repeating the three old miseries of “message-meaning-moral.” And worrying about audience reaction? Oh, please. That’s for TV sitcoms and soap commercials, not for serious literature on the printed page! Look, if you want to be a missionary to the barbarians and teach them all about meter and other poetic tools, go right ahead. But you have an insistent tendency to want to dragoon all the rest of us into your missionary work — to get us to attend open mics, to host open readings ourselves, to be insulted by politically correct idiots like Shawshank, and generally to make ourselves “part of the scene.” Well, frankly, the scene you describe sucks, and we don’t want to be in it. Or is it that — like an Amway dealer — you won’t take no for an answer? Joshua C. Frank June 18, 2024 I’m going to have to side with Joe on this one. I’ve been to open mics. No matter where you are, nearly all poets are far left and write crappy, self-indulgent prose with random line breaks, passing it off as poetry. All anyone wants to do is recite his own “poetry,” as far as I can tell; everyone’s patiently sitting through others reciting so he can each have his own five minutes in the spotlight. Then everyone leaves when the last person is finished. There’s little real interaction. Not that I’m complaining; I didn’t get along with the other “poets” anyway. So, when I found another social engagement that was at the same time and gave me better results, I left. I get my poems read by more people submitting them to a single magazine than in all that time at open mics. One of them got to over a thousand people in this way, thank to the editor’s social media presence. It did have its moments, though. After I read a few of my blatantly traditional shockers, one of them, trying not to lose her temper at me, said, “There is no nice way to say this, but your worldview is totally opposite from mine.” Then she added, “But you’re a very good poet.” That’s higher praise than I get from people whose worldview biases them toward liking my poetry! I just smiled and said, “Hey, one of my favorite poets was an adulterer and an anarchist!” (Referring to Georges Brassens.) Margaret Coats June 18, 2024 Why write in meter? Meter is better. It makes better poems than free verse because it requires skill, discipline, and adherence to artistic standards, as do all of the artistic activities Joseph Salemi has listed above. Even though some free verse may be beautiful in some way, it remains hampered by the lack of any metric potential for greatness. It lacks even the potential of freedom, because as you have noticed, Daniel, there are subtle, unacknowledged rules. Your companions in the above account could not say anything entirely personal, being required to adhere to Rules for Radicals. Therefore they deny themselves even the quality they profess to value most. Lack of meter is a shackled state. Reply Joshua C. Frank June 18, 2024 Why write in meter? Same reason I use rhyme and sometimes fixed forms: because my poetry is much better this way. The constraints of form greatly restrict my word choices, which often leads me to choose better words. Some of my best lines came about in this way. This is why I like to add constraints when they suit the poem. Of course, the best form poems are the ones where the poet sounds as if he isn’t using form, as if those are the sentences he was thinking and they just happen to rhyme and use meter. Georges Brassens was a master of this; I would love to be able to write like him. Reply Daniel Kemper June 20, 2024 Joshua, I’m commenting on both of your posts here. It’s an incorrect frame of reference to see me as defending free verse as opposed to some other POV. My personal style/aesthetic is perfect meter, perfect rhyme all the time. What I was asking for, is advice on approaching free verse writers. There’s much experience here at SCP, it would be foolish not to draw on it. I feel value in their aspirations, not necessarily their accomplishments. Berating them won’t be effective at improving anything. And my topic was not what they have to say to us. **Also Be advised, we’re making an unfair comparison. The people here at SCP are experienced and skilled. Open mics are well, open, and by nature attract all levels, and again, by nature, far more are lower level than higher level. If we grabbed editors of online mags and dug through their rejections, we’d have a comparable sample. **Also, what you get here is filtered. Presenting a work of value or a touching moment–positivisms from the OM is not allowed. So you’re only going to get a bad side. Two concerns have been presented about this. One is that I’m promoting free verse here. (I do get tired of dumbshit defamations and doubletalk.) The second is valid and hugely important. This needs to be a safespace, a sacrosanct space for traditional poetry. There simply aren’t enough places for it to risk free verse overrunning SCP. For those reasons, realize you won’t get much of a good side of the OM’s. I do have to say, though, that there are times it’s hard to find that good side. What we are working with is fourth generation metrical illiteracy. These aspiring poets have been taught by teachers who do not themselves know meter and, likewise, were taught by people who didn’t know it either. SCP excluced, I’ve found a very low % of profs who know meter. And I believe that if there are profs who know it, largely they can’t write it. Here’s the thing. Arguments of the form: order is beauty is meaning is closeness to God a la chain of being are viable, but the mass of poetry writers have deep, lifelong wounds from events that violated that order and so whether or not order matters is highly problematic. And then there’s the sour grapes thing, especially among the so called teachers. It’s just my opinion, but I think what that woman was showing you was, “I never considered what I just heard. I’m open for you to convince me of more.” Just my opinion on some of the ways that women think and communicate which are different from men. Everyone has different callings. Not everyone is called to evangelize as it were. In actual Christianity, we are ALL called via The Great Commission, of course, but not necessarily so with poetry. I take from your post that it will be useful to show some commonalities, something of a connection. Step one, relationship building… Joshua C. Frank June 20, 2024 Hi Daniel, I’m not sure where you got the idea that I accused you of defending free verse, but that was not what I was saying. I’m just answering your question of why I write in meter. At the time, I considered the idea that the other poet at the reading might have been as you describe, and that’s why I spoke with her as much as I did. But the context clearly indicated that she saw me as some kind of hateful, right-wing bigot. I could see her barely contained anger. She called herself an “ally” of LGBT/BIPOC and angrily berated my claims that there are people who suffer because of woke ideology, much as left-liberals do when they come here to attack us for the content of our poems. My experience is that people mostly have chosen one side or the other, like the Biblical tree that falls to the north or the south. Margaret Coats June 18, 2024 In your essay overall, Daniel, one interesting topic is academia, and what bad shape poetry is in there. You are not speaking here for other writers gathered for the open mic, or I think not, though many or most of them may have had experience of literature or creative writing classes. It’s your own observation that poetry classes are few, and only one teacher you know seems metrically competent. In my experience as an English major, I was able to fulfill the requirement of 11 semester courses by taking 10 on poetry, and only one that was theme-based, with poetry and fiction included. Overall organization of literature programs has traditionally worked around history, with requirements and specializations in historical periods. The modern period, and none of the others, has sometimes but not always been short of poetry courses. As I finished my education and left the Modern Language Association, there was more and more concern for teachers being able to design courses on their PERSONAL interests, as well as the regrettable invasion of “theory” courses. You are aware, as a current academic, that “theory” does not mean anything so useful as critical theory or literary theory (of which I had courses in graduate school), but refers to anti-traditional approaches to interpretation. “Theory” has killed the joy of studying literature, as even freshmen students are now required to parrot back Marxism and any other “ism” the teacher likes. Most important, it means that one can obtain a degree in literature without ever reading any. And you can see that this emphasis on “theory” entirely does away with any need for teachers to learn or teach poetic craft, which has nothing to do politics or philosophy or psychoanalysis. In fact, it works in favor of free verse that is anti-traditional in practice and oppositional in theory. I have no experience of creative writing teachers or courses, but I can say the increasing disdain of literature specialists for teaching writing, either expository or creative, can only contribute to ignorance of every skill that you say is supposed to be taught by those who have that unenviable job of teaching writing. Reply Joseph S. Salemi June 18, 2024 Margaret, you are right on target. In the college where I teach, all expository and creative writing classes are taught by adjunct faculty. The full-time faculty will only teach upper-level courses on specific writers or literary periods, or idiotic courses in various asinine theories. I’ve attended English Department meetings where the department chair begged his full-timers to cover at least one expository writing class per semester, to ease hiring burdens. They vociferously and angrily refused, and threatened to vote him out as chair if he persisted in bothering them about the issue. Reply Daniel Kemper June 20, 2024 Margaret, [Why write in meter?] [Requires skill. ][It lacks even the potential of freedom, because as you have noticed, Daniel, there are subtle, unacknowledged rules. ] I’d add that there’s something missing with which to be free. Whatever free verse can do, formal verse can do. But then free verse runs out of ammunition. Unwritten rules. I’ll give them this. I’ve always been treated well. [ …fulfill the requirement of 11 semester courses by taking 10 on poetry] That’s an awesome curriculum! [Teachers being able to design courses on their PERSONAL interests, as well as the regrettable invasion of “theory” courses.] Sounds like the specter of Rules for Radicals already beginning. Likely the only ones pushing personal interests were useful idiots. (?) “Theory” has killed the joy of studying literature. ABSOLUTELY. It means that one can obtain a degree in literature without ever reading any. This is multigenerational now. And you can see that this emphasis on “theory” entirely does away with any need for teachers to learn [ANYTHING]. Teaching writing is hard– Among the many reasons is that you can’t teach it without teaching thinking. Feeling over thinking is the liberal hallmark, right? Reply Susan Jarvis Bryant June 18, 2024 What an intriguing essay and a thoroughly engaging comments section. Here’s my answer to your question: So why write in meter when penning a poem You ask me and here’s my reply: If I drop the rapturous roll of a rhythm My mojo is destined to die. Some folks may be stoked by haphazard eruptions Of discordant notes dipped in drear. I favor the frisson of lyric seductions – Mellifluous trips for the ear. I’m not saying rhythmical stanzas are slicker Or unmetered prose isn’t nice… But whisky on ice when you leave out the liquor Is half of a glassful of ice. 🙂 Reply Daniel Kemper June 20, 2024 Brava! Susan, you inspired me~ Formal Range: True Freedom in Verse Perfect proof resides in how delightful, lilting lines with playful rhymes combine to show and tell and offer up a frightful range of free expression. Sure, it’s fine to claim, debate, or rant about expression– but debate without delight is dreary often making rage or else depression. Quatrains prove, without becoming weary. Freedom isn’t free; and free of meter, verses can’t sustain a true diversity Counterarguments just slowly peter out and leave us with adversity. Wise, the lines of Susan Jarvis Bryant, playful too, this literary giant. Reply Daniel Kemper June 19, 2024 These are all, in their own ways, delightful. I should have time to do just replies later in the afternoon. For now, here’s kindof my go to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxvKGZfYmns&t=16s But how to bridge from philosophical justification to appeal… PS one quick notion I’ve had overnight is to flip the question back to them–why avoid meter… Reply ABB June 22, 2024 Good observation about the fundamentals of free-versers being rooted in Alinsky. An entertaining place to go for downing espresso and having some cruel laughs at the expense of others. Reply Daniel Kemper July 1, 2024 There are some that deserve the cruel laughs and some that do not. The deservingness does not necessarily correlate to goodness of verse, of course. Remember, there are all levels of experience and age. Everyone has to start somewhere. Maybe it’s just me: Triggers my Catcher-in-the-Rye nature. Want to teach those who’ll listen. Reply Chris June 25, 2024 Reminds me of the mad writings a minor poet that I read, years ago at State. Byron, maybe, or someone I used to know. It is interesting to see our eventual destinations. We always return to our roots, our essence. But the roads not taken, the paths not trod, the lessons not learned. Was there ever ever a possibility of a different outcome? Reply Chris June 25, 2024 Chris (again, maybe I should have put this in a poetic form and proofread) To an old friend Reminds me of the mad writings of a minor poet I once read, years ago at State Byron, maybe, or someone I used to know It is interesting, if only to me, to see our eventual destinations We always return to our roots, our essence But the roads not taken the paths not trod the lessons not learned. Was there ever a possibility of a different outcome? Reply Chris June 25, 2024 And my thought on your question: How do the uneducated, ill-taught, inexperienced recognize it as poetry if its not in meter? Daniel Kemper July 1, 2024 Bwahaha! That’s pretty good. They’d assert the indefinability of poetry or the relativity of definition. If you say its a poem; it’s a poem. If you self-identify as a poet, you’re a poet. You know, that tried and true syllogism, “Proof by declaration.” For YOU, it’s a poem… Basically, their pseudo-definition is: if it FEELS poetic, it’s a poem. I like to kid them their definition is like the Judge who said, “I can’t tell you what pornography is, but I know it when I see it.” The study is not in defining poetry; that’s step by step. It’s how to get it across to minds scarred by three generations of bad teaching. We’re just old enough to remember when some people, encountering free verse for the first time would react, “But it doesn’t rhyme.” Now it’s the other way around. I’ve basically encountered, “This was really good, but it rhymes.” (They don’t know what meter is to comment on it.) Daniel Kemper July 1, 2024 The poet might have scribbled in a yearbook structured around Frost’s “The Road not Taken” with the quip that he was going to break brush and make his own path–a road never yet taken. He received an NIV that eventually changed his life, btw. Reply Leave a Reply Cancel ReplyYour email address will not be published.CommentName* Email* Website Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Notify me of new posts by email. Δ This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.
Cynthia Erlandson June 17, 2024 Wow, great description, Daniel. I’m grateful to you, because I would so much rather read about these events than attend them. Reply
Daniel Kemper June 18, 2024 Hi Cynthia, Thank you for the reply. Sorry to be late; hectic day before during after some work with the SPC. A caution about the overall impression of these events. Remember that the pleasant and good doesn’t make much of a story to post. A bright spot post is coming– but the idea is the stark contrast. I’ve worked my way into giving a workshop on “Meter and Flow” and one of the attendees wanted me to look over something he was working on. He’s a great guy, 80+, joe cool sax, easy going. Took some effort for meter to click b/c he hasn’t written that way and it doesn’t map 1:1 with music. But something clicked. (Only one session so far.) He presented a poem that was roughly a full page with 5 total dings. The rest was solid meter. Yay! Now, change of subject: Something I hope to base an essay on was a challenge one of the attendees presented. So Daniel, tell me, why would I want to write like this, to learn all this?” By which he meant learn how to write in meter. How would you respond? Open question for anyone: Why write in meter? Reply
Joseph S. Salemi June 18, 2024 Why carve a cameo? Why learn to play the harpsichord? Why make Belgian lace? Why cut and polish a diamond? Why sing grand opera? Why weave a tapestry? Why write a novel? Why paint a fresco? The question asked by that attendee is the question of an aesthetic philistine, who sees artistic endeavor as nothing important, or or just as a means of expressing visceral emotion without embellishment. If that’s the kind of person who frequents the SPC, they have nothing to say to us. You opened the door, by making this an open question. Reply
Daniel Kemper June 18, 2024 Hey Joe, Yes–totally open. You read my intent perfectly. Glad and encouraged to hear from you on topic. I want to be sure I have everything I can top of mind, so i hope others keep responding as well. Exactly! I had a two-prong response and was beginning to elaborate just as you have, reductio-ad-absurdum, when he more or less said, okokok. The first thing I pointed out was that that using meter means more tools on the table for expression. Not just a few more, but that actually the tools available for expression when you have a foundation of good meter actually dwarfs the number of tools available to the free verse world. It’s the difference between someone who has never played piano and Haydn, say. True a person can make notes and shine out a pretty-ish pattern or two, but… But it’s not just a matter of facts, but I don’t mean that makes it a matter of fiction, lol, I mean it’s a matter of approach. If you are writing a poem, you have a message/experience/feeling/insight you want to deliver and an audience to whom you want to deliver it, right? So, you consider the approach that will get these things conveyed to the listener, even implanted if you will. ATM, my tour of the poetic world-as-it-is not as-it-could-or-should-be isn’t asking what that world has to say or not, but what can I effectively say to them. And how. That’s a take/toss continued invitation if you want. More to come; I’m running around giving tutorials today…
Joseph S. Salemi June 18, 2024 Daniel, you still don’t really understand what I’m talking about. Poetry — and all the fine arts — are about their own aesthetic perfection, and how that perfection appeals to and satisfies the innate human love of beauty that exists in almost everyone. All of the things I mentioned above (cameos, harpsichords, Belgian lace, etc.) are in no way necessary for our physical existence. But things of this sort are necessary for those of us who appreciate the finer elements of high culture. When you go on about the “message/experience/feeling/insight you want to deliver” you are just repeating the three old miseries of “message-meaning-moral.” And worrying about audience reaction? Oh, please. That’s for TV sitcoms and soap commercials, not for serious literature on the printed page! Look, if you want to be a missionary to the barbarians and teach them all about meter and other poetic tools, go right ahead. But you have an insistent tendency to want to dragoon all the rest of us into your missionary work — to get us to attend open mics, to host open readings ourselves, to be insulted by politically correct idiots like Shawshank, and generally to make ourselves “part of the scene.” Well, frankly, the scene you describe sucks, and we don’t want to be in it. Or is it that — like an Amway dealer — you won’t take no for an answer?
Joshua C. Frank June 18, 2024 I’m going to have to side with Joe on this one. I’ve been to open mics. No matter where you are, nearly all poets are far left and write crappy, self-indulgent prose with random line breaks, passing it off as poetry. All anyone wants to do is recite his own “poetry,” as far as I can tell; everyone’s patiently sitting through others reciting so he can each have his own five minutes in the spotlight. Then everyone leaves when the last person is finished. There’s little real interaction. Not that I’m complaining; I didn’t get along with the other “poets” anyway. So, when I found another social engagement that was at the same time and gave me better results, I left. I get my poems read by more people submitting them to a single magazine than in all that time at open mics. One of them got to over a thousand people in this way, thank to the editor’s social media presence. It did have its moments, though. After I read a few of my blatantly traditional shockers, one of them, trying not to lose her temper at me, said, “There is no nice way to say this, but your worldview is totally opposite from mine.” Then she added, “But you’re a very good poet.” That’s higher praise than I get from people whose worldview biases them toward liking my poetry! I just smiled and said, “Hey, one of my favorite poets was an adulterer and an anarchist!” (Referring to Georges Brassens.)
Margaret Coats June 18, 2024 Why write in meter? Meter is better. It makes better poems than free verse because it requires skill, discipline, and adherence to artistic standards, as do all of the artistic activities Joseph Salemi has listed above. Even though some free verse may be beautiful in some way, it remains hampered by the lack of any metric potential for greatness. It lacks even the potential of freedom, because as you have noticed, Daniel, there are subtle, unacknowledged rules. Your companions in the above account could not say anything entirely personal, being required to adhere to Rules for Radicals. Therefore they deny themselves even the quality they profess to value most. Lack of meter is a shackled state. Reply
Joshua C. Frank June 18, 2024 Why write in meter? Same reason I use rhyme and sometimes fixed forms: because my poetry is much better this way. The constraints of form greatly restrict my word choices, which often leads me to choose better words. Some of my best lines came about in this way. This is why I like to add constraints when they suit the poem. Of course, the best form poems are the ones where the poet sounds as if he isn’t using form, as if those are the sentences he was thinking and they just happen to rhyme and use meter. Georges Brassens was a master of this; I would love to be able to write like him. Reply
Daniel Kemper June 20, 2024 Joshua, I’m commenting on both of your posts here. It’s an incorrect frame of reference to see me as defending free verse as opposed to some other POV. My personal style/aesthetic is perfect meter, perfect rhyme all the time. What I was asking for, is advice on approaching free verse writers. There’s much experience here at SCP, it would be foolish not to draw on it. I feel value in their aspirations, not necessarily their accomplishments. Berating them won’t be effective at improving anything. And my topic was not what they have to say to us. **Also Be advised, we’re making an unfair comparison. The people here at SCP are experienced and skilled. Open mics are well, open, and by nature attract all levels, and again, by nature, far more are lower level than higher level. If we grabbed editors of online mags and dug through their rejections, we’d have a comparable sample. **Also, what you get here is filtered. Presenting a work of value or a touching moment–positivisms from the OM is not allowed. So you’re only going to get a bad side. Two concerns have been presented about this. One is that I’m promoting free verse here. (I do get tired of dumbshit defamations and doubletalk.) The second is valid and hugely important. This needs to be a safespace, a sacrosanct space for traditional poetry. There simply aren’t enough places for it to risk free verse overrunning SCP. For those reasons, realize you won’t get much of a good side of the OM’s. I do have to say, though, that there are times it’s hard to find that good side. What we are working with is fourth generation metrical illiteracy. These aspiring poets have been taught by teachers who do not themselves know meter and, likewise, were taught by people who didn’t know it either. SCP excluced, I’ve found a very low % of profs who know meter. And I believe that if there are profs who know it, largely they can’t write it. Here’s the thing. Arguments of the form: order is beauty is meaning is closeness to God a la chain of being are viable, but the mass of poetry writers have deep, lifelong wounds from events that violated that order and so whether or not order matters is highly problematic. And then there’s the sour grapes thing, especially among the so called teachers. It’s just my opinion, but I think what that woman was showing you was, “I never considered what I just heard. I’m open for you to convince me of more.” Just my opinion on some of the ways that women think and communicate which are different from men. Everyone has different callings. Not everyone is called to evangelize as it were. In actual Christianity, we are ALL called via The Great Commission, of course, but not necessarily so with poetry. I take from your post that it will be useful to show some commonalities, something of a connection. Step one, relationship building…
Joshua C. Frank June 20, 2024 Hi Daniel, I’m not sure where you got the idea that I accused you of defending free verse, but that was not what I was saying. I’m just answering your question of why I write in meter. At the time, I considered the idea that the other poet at the reading might have been as you describe, and that’s why I spoke with her as much as I did. But the context clearly indicated that she saw me as some kind of hateful, right-wing bigot. I could see her barely contained anger. She called herself an “ally” of LGBT/BIPOC and angrily berated my claims that there are people who suffer because of woke ideology, much as left-liberals do when they come here to attack us for the content of our poems. My experience is that people mostly have chosen one side or the other, like the Biblical tree that falls to the north or the south.
Margaret Coats June 18, 2024 In your essay overall, Daniel, one interesting topic is academia, and what bad shape poetry is in there. You are not speaking here for other writers gathered for the open mic, or I think not, though many or most of them may have had experience of literature or creative writing classes. It’s your own observation that poetry classes are few, and only one teacher you know seems metrically competent. In my experience as an English major, I was able to fulfill the requirement of 11 semester courses by taking 10 on poetry, and only one that was theme-based, with poetry and fiction included. Overall organization of literature programs has traditionally worked around history, with requirements and specializations in historical periods. The modern period, and none of the others, has sometimes but not always been short of poetry courses. As I finished my education and left the Modern Language Association, there was more and more concern for teachers being able to design courses on their PERSONAL interests, as well as the regrettable invasion of “theory” courses. You are aware, as a current academic, that “theory” does not mean anything so useful as critical theory or literary theory (of which I had courses in graduate school), but refers to anti-traditional approaches to interpretation. “Theory” has killed the joy of studying literature, as even freshmen students are now required to parrot back Marxism and any other “ism” the teacher likes. Most important, it means that one can obtain a degree in literature without ever reading any. And you can see that this emphasis on “theory” entirely does away with any need for teachers to learn or teach poetic craft, which has nothing to do politics or philosophy or psychoanalysis. In fact, it works in favor of free verse that is anti-traditional in practice and oppositional in theory. I have no experience of creative writing teachers or courses, but I can say the increasing disdain of literature specialists for teaching writing, either expository or creative, can only contribute to ignorance of every skill that you say is supposed to be taught by those who have that unenviable job of teaching writing. Reply
Joseph S. Salemi June 18, 2024 Margaret, you are right on target. In the college where I teach, all expository and creative writing classes are taught by adjunct faculty. The full-time faculty will only teach upper-level courses on specific writers or literary periods, or idiotic courses in various asinine theories. I’ve attended English Department meetings where the department chair begged his full-timers to cover at least one expository writing class per semester, to ease hiring burdens. They vociferously and angrily refused, and threatened to vote him out as chair if he persisted in bothering them about the issue. Reply
Daniel Kemper June 20, 2024 Margaret, [Why write in meter?] [Requires skill. ][It lacks even the potential of freedom, because as you have noticed, Daniel, there are subtle, unacknowledged rules. ] I’d add that there’s something missing with which to be free. Whatever free verse can do, formal verse can do. But then free verse runs out of ammunition. Unwritten rules. I’ll give them this. I’ve always been treated well. [ …fulfill the requirement of 11 semester courses by taking 10 on poetry] That’s an awesome curriculum! [Teachers being able to design courses on their PERSONAL interests, as well as the regrettable invasion of “theory” courses.] Sounds like the specter of Rules for Radicals already beginning. Likely the only ones pushing personal interests were useful idiots. (?) “Theory” has killed the joy of studying literature. ABSOLUTELY. It means that one can obtain a degree in literature without ever reading any. This is multigenerational now. And you can see that this emphasis on “theory” entirely does away with any need for teachers to learn [ANYTHING]. Teaching writing is hard– Among the many reasons is that you can’t teach it without teaching thinking. Feeling over thinking is the liberal hallmark, right? Reply
Susan Jarvis Bryant June 18, 2024 What an intriguing essay and a thoroughly engaging comments section. Here’s my answer to your question: So why write in meter when penning a poem You ask me and here’s my reply: If I drop the rapturous roll of a rhythm My mojo is destined to die. Some folks may be stoked by haphazard eruptions Of discordant notes dipped in drear. I favor the frisson of lyric seductions – Mellifluous trips for the ear. I’m not saying rhythmical stanzas are slicker Or unmetered prose isn’t nice… But whisky on ice when you leave out the liquor Is half of a glassful of ice. 🙂 Reply
Daniel Kemper June 20, 2024 Brava! Susan, you inspired me~ Formal Range: True Freedom in Verse Perfect proof resides in how delightful, lilting lines with playful rhymes combine to show and tell and offer up a frightful range of free expression. Sure, it’s fine to claim, debate, or rant about expression– but debate without delight is dreary often making rage or else depression. Quatrains prove, without becoming weary. Freedom isn’t free; and free of meter, verses can’t sustain a true diversity Counterarguments just slowly peter out and leave us with adversity. Wise, the lines of Susan Jarvis Bryant, playful too, this literary giant. Reply
Daniel Kemper June 19, 2024 These are all, in their own ways, delightful. I should have time to do just replies later in the afternoon. For now, here’s kindof my go to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxvKGZfYmns&t=16s But how to bridge from philosophical justification to appeal… PS one quick notion I’ve had overnight is to flip the question back to them–why avoid meter… Reply
ABB June 22, 2024 Good observation about the fundamentals of free-versers being rooted in Alinsky. An entertaining place to go for downing espresso and having some cruel laughs at the expense of others. Reply
Daniel Kemper July 1, 2024 There are some that deserve the cruel laughs and some that do not. The deservingness does not necessarily correlate to goodness of verse, of course. Remember, there are all levels of experience and age. Everyone has to start somewhere. Maybe it’s just me: Triggers my Catcher-in-the-Rye nature. Want to teach those who’ll listen. Reply
Chris June 25, 2024 Reminds me of the mad writings a minor poet that I read, years ago at State. Byron, maybe, or someone I used to know. It is interesting to see our eventual destinations. We always return to our roots, our essence. But the roads not taken, the paths not trod, the lessons not learned. Was there ever ever a possibility of a different outcome? Reply
Chris June 25, 2024 Chris (again, maybe I should have put this in a poetic form and proofread) To an old friend Reminds me of the mad writings of a minor poet I once read, years ago at State Byron, maybe, or someone I used to know It is interesting, if only to me, to see our eventual destinations We always return to our roots, our essence But the roads not taken the paths not trod the lessons not learned. Was there ever a possibility of a different outcome? Reply
Chris June 25, 2024 And my thought on your question: How do the uneducated, ill-taught, inexperienced recognize it as poetry if its not in meter?
Daniel Kemper July 1, 2024 Bwahaha! That’s pretty good. They’d assert the indefinability of poetry or the relativity of definition. If you say its a poem; it’s a poem. If you self-identify as a poet, you’re a poet. You know, that tried and true syllogism, “Proof by declaration.” For YOU, it’s a poem… Basically, their pseudo-definition is: if it FEELS poetic, it’s a poem. I like to kid them their definition is like the Judge who said, “I can’t tell you what pornography is, but I know it when I see it.” The study is not in defining poetry; that’s step by step. It’s how to get it across to minds scarred by three generations of bad teaching. We’re just old enough to remember when some people, encountering free verse for the first time would react, “But it doesn’t rhyme.” Now it’s the other way around. I’ve basically encountered, “This was really good, but it rhymes.” (They don’t know what meter is to comment on it.)
Daniel Kemper July 1, 2024 The poet might have scribbled in a yearbook structured around Frost’s “The Road not Taken” with the quip that he was going to break brush and make his own path–a road never yet taken. He received an NIV that eventually changed his life, btw. Reply
